That God of yours, Conti, is one bad a– character. He gets PO’d then destroys the entire earth and everything He created; all this only 1500 years after Adam? That dude is the ultimate Terminator, man. Where is this God of love and mercy you Christians are always harping about?
All I see about me, Conti, is death, bloodshed, disease, hate and misery. Sorry, man, if this God guy of yours is so good and powerful, why does He permit war? Why didn’t He stop the planes from hitting the World Trade Towers on 9-11? Why diseases and cancer? Why poisonous animals and stuff? I just don’t get it, man. I’ll just continue worshipping Mother Gaia and protecting her from the evil human parasites. Mother earth comes first. We must keep her virginal and pristine, man. The human species may have been the most recent to have evolved, but we are messing things up, man. Protect the planet, save the whales, hug a Polar Bear – screw mankind!
OK Moonbeam, you made your point – man. What you profess doesn’t sound very humanitarian. I thought you guys were all into the love thing. Or was I mistaken? Appears to me it’s self love and lust that you are seeking. Well at least that’s consistent with your evolutionary philosophy. Number one always comes first!
Moonbeam has actually posed a number of astute questions that should be EASILY answered by Christians and Catholics alike. Unfortunately Catholics/Christians (including the clerics and other religious) are dumbfounded as to how to respond. Why? We Christians have become so immersed in secular evolutionary philosophies for decades, we don’t think as Christians any longer; let alone ACT like Christians.
Carl Sagan, remember him? Cosmos, 1980, “The secrets of evolution are death and time”.
Evolution mandates “survival of the fittest” by whatever means it deems necessary. The only way, and I mean THE ONLY WAY an evolutionist/atheist can even presume to appeal to the “can’t we all get along” philosophy, is to subscribe to some sort of Judeo-Christian based principles; whether they realize it or not; Mostly not.
Evolution MUST be based on some unknown power of nature (The Force, Eywa, etc.) that was placed in our genes my Mother Gaia. In other words, that our genes are “selfish”, they want to “survive”. Therefore each individual defines his or her own truth in that quest for survival.
How dare the atheist/evolutionist claim the high moral ground by accusing that the terrorists were wrong by attacking innocent civilians at the World Trade Center on 9-11. From the terrorist’s perspective they feel they own the high moral ground. Weren’t they following their own genes’ directive of “survival” and what is right in their own eyes? Who defines innocent? They look at themselves as Freedom Fighters and not terrorists. The evolutionist/atheist shouldn’t even use the term “moral.”
Only the Christian can be judgmental based on Biblical principles; which by definition implies a Supreme Being who created order, purpose and rules. The atheist/evolutionist either needs to keep his pie hole shut or be supportive of the terrorists. Oh, that’s right some do support them. At least those secular humanists, atheists and evolutionists are being consistent in following their philosophy – possibly to their own detriment and demise, at the hands of the very people they support. Pure evolution is blind to the concept of good and evil, right and wrong.
Dr. William B. Provine, Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University: “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear….There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”
Sure is a bummer being an atheist and an evolutionist like Provine. Might as well get all you can, while you can. If there is no life after death, i.e. no punishment or reward, do you really think the average atheist/evolutionist has the least compunction NOT to rip you off, or lie, cheat, and steal? That is why I distrust some people (including evolutionized Christians) who say they believe in God. The devil himself believes in God. In the Garden of Eden the serpent lied to Eve about what God had said to her. Not once did the devil say he didn’t believe in God when he was talking to Eve. When Jesus was in the desert for forty days, the devil tempted Him to turn rocks into loaves of bread. Why waste your time on some crazy man in the desert if Satan didn’t believe Jesus was God? Telling me you believe in God doesn’t necessarily make me trust you one iota!!
The radical Muslims are not exempt either. They are extremely evolutionized in their thinking AND actions. They scream “Allahu Akbar” as they prepare to blow themselves up or murder anyone else that is not in lock step with their twisted ideology. THINK!! They behave in an evolutionary/atheistic way and claim they believe in God as they perform horrific acts. They berate the Jews claiming they came from pigs and apes. Hmmm – I wonder where they got that idea. P.S. It’s not in the Quran.
Are you inferring, Conti, that all the world’s problems started in that Eden garden? Uh, yeeah, Moonbeam. How the devil, (literally) do you think this whole mess started? Because if you don’t believe in a literal Adam and a literal Eve and a literal devil, in a literal garden of Eden who started this – what other explanation do you have? Answer – Bill Provine and Sagan and Bozarth (“Destroy Adam and Eve and Original sin…”)? To them you can add Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller (and sons), Teddy Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. How about your Congressman or Senator involved in kickbacks from large Corporations (crony capitalism) at both workers and taxpayers expense, in order to feather their own nests.
Congressmen and Senators have their own special double diamond triple ripple healthcare and retirement programs totally paid for with your tax dollars. No low life social security or bargain basement healthcare programs for them. James Madison said “Congress must abide by the same laws it enacts for its citizenry, anything less is tyranny!”
How can you lump all these people together, Conti? True, Andrew Carnegie, some Senators and ol’ John D. didn’t kill millions outright like Stalin and Hitler, BUT they still adhered to the tenets of evolution to one degree or another. They still made people suffer needlessly because they believed in the “survival of the fittest” mentality. They truly believed some people were created (excuse me, evolved) as inferiors to serve those “elite” and “enlightened” illuminati who were destined to rule over us peasants.
Look at China today with their child slave labor at 30 cents an hour making your plasma TV’s, cell phones and everything else under the sun. This is hardcore evolution in action, pure and simple. Why is it the die-hard evolutionists understand the issues infinitely better than the Catholics and Christians? Answer – they understand our theology better than we do.
C’mon Conti, can all these people be making selfish decisions by consciously taking evolution into account? Aren’t you stretching it a bit? True, some evolutionists/atheists, the secular humanist crowd, and some “Christians” are not necessarily making these decisions on a conscious plane; however, they ARE making them because they totally believe with every fiber of their being that ultimately there will be no repercussions for them when they die; ala Dr. William Provine.
Real Catholics/Christians on the other hand tend to mostly (not always) hold back on bad or evil decisions because of the “loss of heaven and the pains of hell” they WILL experience for their evil ways.
All this brings us back to Moonbeam’s original question as to why God permits evil? Let me remind you we can only use the term “evil” in a Judeo-Christian context; evolutionists are not allowed to use this term. Again refer back to Provine. If you decide to destroy someone’s character (a classic common political maneuver) you are making a conscious WILLING decision to do so. Are you going to argue that you did it on instinct, like some kind of insect? THINK! Are you, your parents, and your siblings all EXACTLY alike in behavioral characteristics like ants and “instinctually” go around destroying people’s characters? Why is the politician or the vindictive desperate housewife not destroying EVERYONE’S character – just to be sure, of course, that he or she is #1? Seems to me they ARE selective in who they destroy.
I’m not sure what Provine is smoking. Humans are NOT insects. God programmed the insects, birds, etc. with some robotic (instinctual)characteristics into their DNA/information. Humans He gave free will to love Him and others freely; or to hate, despise, covet, envy, etc. Your own spouse or child – wouldn’t you prefer they freely love you, rather than being programmed to do so by instinct, like some worker bee toward his queen? Likewise God created us in His image, asking that we would love Him like He loves us with free will.
Jesus was asked which is the greatest commandment in the Law. His reply: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40
Therefore, when humans love, they do so freely. When they build someone up, they do so freely. Compassion and charity are all done with free will. So is hate, murder, rape, arrogance, etc. Cain, with his free will, murdered his brother Abel. So if you don’t like God’s decision to have created you with free will, convert to some eastern philosophy and you may be reincarnated in the next life as some insect or worm without free will, only instinct.
Bottom line is that most of the problems in today’s world stem from man’s inhumanity to man; which is a FREE WILL decision, unfortunately based mostly on evolutionary thinking. Even the term “inhumanity” can properly be used only by Christians and NOT by evolutionists. Again, see Provine for confirmation.
All right Moonbeam, we have established the fact that man was created with free will and is not some automaton. Adam had this choice (which he rejected) to share freely in the Divine Will. He was created PERFECT: A perfect physical specimen in mind, soul and body.
OK man, like we are our own worst enemies, man.
Moonbeam, I see a ray of hope and change in you.
Moonbeam, ever had a classmate that excelled in every sport? A natural. A born athlete. The perfect physical specimen. An Adonis. You are getting just an opaque glimpse of the remnant deteriorated genes that were passed down from his great, great, great……. Grandfather Adam.
Likewise, the brainiac in class who knows the answer to every question; who doesn’t seem to need to study much and still gets an A in every subject. You just hated those twerps. Again you are seeing just a tiny tangential glimpse into the original Adam (and Eve).
Adam and Eve were made perfect in every way. “And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was VERY good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen.1:31 “Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels: thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, and hast set him over the works of thy hands.” Heb. 2-7
These two were not some imaginary grunting, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. God created them with language, likely ancient Hebrew. “And Adam named the animals.” Gen. 2-3. Both were mid-brown (Punnet square) and Eve must have been a stunning raven-haired creature of beauty to behold. God didn’t do ugly. However, after they were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, not only were they cursed, but the entire creation along with them.
Yea man, but what about diseases and poisonous animals and stuff man?
Moonbeam, with the advent of Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden, all of Creation started to change and degenerate. We know that Adam and Eve and all the animals were originally vegetarian (Gen. 1:29-30). Vegans? For real man? Yes. After Adam rebelled God cursed the ground and caused thorns and thistles to grow (Gen. 3:17-18). St. Paul confirms this when he writes “For we know that the whole Creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.” Romans 8:22
Reflect on this “WHOLE CREATION” a moment. That means everything from the farthest galaxies down to subatomic particles that God created – all this is breaking down. From the moment Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, the pronouncement of death was upon them and the WHOLE CREATION.
No longer was everything perfect, as it was at the end of the Creation week. “And God saw everything He had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD.” Gen. 1:31 The second Law of Thermodynamics was now starting to take effect. Yo, Conti – Wha is dis thermometer law you are talkin abou?
Yo, Moonbeam, it’s called the Second Law of T-H-E-R-M-O-D-Y-N-A-M-I-C-S. It states that all (repeat ALL) things in the entire universe are winding down, breaking down, falling apart. Stars (including our sun) are burning up their fuel source or exploding and going supernova. The earth’s rotation is slowing. The gravitational attraction between earth and moon are weakening (and between other celestial bodies as well). Your own genes as well as other plants, animals, bacteria and viruses are continuing to mutate (loss of information) and cause more diseases. Even your car is rusting out, and you are getting old Moonbeam. Now you know how ugly came to be.
How soon after being expelled from Eden did the “thorns and thistles” develop through the mutated genes creating poisonous snakes, plants and insects is unknown. When did animals start to kill? We do know that all this did NOT exist before Adam sinned. The Garden of Eden as well as the entire Creation was PERFECT, 6000 years ago, unless God was lying to us.
Wow man! You are blowing my mind. All this because Adam and Eve screwed up by eating a piece of fruit?
Moonbeam you have a choice to believe there has always been death and disease that has been ongoing for millions of years of evolutionary advancement. From the time some amoeba ate another amoeba until the first hominid man swung out of the trees to the ground to club to death some other unlucky lesser hominid species. And this will continue until some other more advanced species (maybe from another galaxy or time warp) overtakes man as the top dog. All this until the last star burns out and we all freeze to death.
P.S. Don’t forget to decide where on Adolph’s Evolutionary Totem Pole of color, your superiority or inferiority exists. And you still have the heretical death-before-Adam concept through those millions of years of imaginary evolutionary time to deal with.
OR
Our first parents and the creation were created PERFECT without any flaws, only 6000 years ago. No diseases, no poisonous animals nor plants nor detrimental bacteria, no growing old – NO DEATH! All creation lived in harmony with God. All God asked of Adam was not to eat from one tree in the Garden. He could eat of all others. Adam and Eve had it made in the shade, Moonbeam. No sweat – no BO either! God tested Adam’s free will. He blew it. The gates of Heaven were now closed to us. There had to be an EQUAL payback. And you know what they say about payback!
A perfect sacrifice for what our first parents did to us, if we were to regain Heaven. Christ, the second Adam (Romans 3:23-27) HAD to be that perfect sacrifice. Who else, pray tell, was eligible as a PERFECT, flawless, without-sin sacrifice? Yes, He loved us- His creation- that much, to sacrifice His only Son. Would you sacrifice your only son for future generations of your family to live?
Christ opened the gates of Heaven for us and will restore the earth where we – “can all get along together”. When we say in the Our Father – “Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven”, i.e. Back to a future that will be like the Garden of Eden. Now that’s a future we and our children, and children’s children, can all look forward to.
“The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them.” Isaiah 11:6
Gene Conti, MD
gconti62@gmail.com
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